இடஒதுக்கீடு - கரண் தப்பார் அர்ஜூன்சிங் விவாதம்

இடஒதுக்கீடு மக்களை முன்னேத்துது, அது ஒண்ணு தான் விடிவெள்ளி...அப்டீனு பேசறவங்க எல்லாம், இந்த கரண் தப்பாரின் கேள்விகளையும் அர்ஜூன் சிங்கின் வழிசல் பதில்களையும் கண்டிப்பா படிச்சுப்பார்க்கணும்! ஒரு கேள்விக்கும் நேரடியா, விரிவா பதில் சொல்லாம, "நாங்க முடிவு பண்ணிட்டோம்.', 'அது மக்களை முன்னேத்தும்'னு சொல்றதுக்குப் பேரு, ஜல்லி! கரண்தப்பார் சும்மா சுத்தி சுத்தி ஆடுறாரு கில்லி!



- மைக்செட் முனுசாமி

பி.கு :- இந்தக் கருத்துகள்லே மாறுபடவறங்க...சும்மா என் மேலே பாயாம, கரண் தப்பார் புள்ளி விவரங்களோட கேட்ட கேள்விக்கெல்லாம் ஒங்களோட பதில்களை ஒரு பதிவாய்ப்போட்டு, இங்கே போடுங்க. எங்களுக்கும் கொஞ்சம் வெளங்கினாப்புலே இருக்கும்! நம்ம எல்லாம் படிச்சவங்க...ஒரு கருத்துன்னு இருந்தா, எதிர்கருத்துன்னு ஒண்ணு இருக்கும்னு நல்லா தெரிஞ்சவங்க...அதுனால உணர்ச்சி வசப்படாம, அலசுங்க. ஓ.கேயா?!

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52 comments: to “ இடஒதுக்கீடு - கரண் தப்பார் அர்ஜூன்சிங் விவாதம்

  • RangA

     

    I am for reservation but I am against the way it is being implemented without feedback and proper regulations. I am not getting into the subject of reservations but I want to make observations on the fallacies of Karan Thapar's 'Statistical facts'. Apparently Thapar seemed to have won the debate but that is because Arjun Singh is a simpleton.
    But Thapar's arguments can be easily countered. Here I go.

    Thapar : Except for the fact that the NSSO, which is a government appointed body, has actually in its research in 1999 - which is the most latest research shown - that 23.5 per cent of all university seats are already with the OBCs. And that is just 8.5 per cent less than what the NSSO believes is the OBC share of the population. So, for a difference of 8 per cent, would reservations be the right way of making up the difference?

    Thapar conveniently assumes the lowest figure of OBC percentages (32%). Even then he agrees that there is a 8 % shortage in representation.
    Secondly he says 23.5% of OBCs are in college seats. That 23.5 % comes from the open quota. In these cases you do not see how many %ages are already there. You consider how much % is denied seats.
    Thirdly one cannot compare % seats with % population. That is fooling with facts. For eg If there are 100 seats and 1000 people in India, OBCs are 320 people. The number of seats available for them is presently with open quota only 24. Even with reservation of 27 % another 27 more would get the seats. Out of 320 people there is going to be 320-(24+27) left behind.

    The other two statistics Thapar put forth are for SC/STs. That argument will not hold for OBCs
    50% of the SC/ST seats in IIT remain vacant not because there is nobody to take it. but because the seats have still reduced merit attached to them. Not many SC/STs could even reach that lower level. That is shame for a country's education system.

    In my opinion Thapar is twisting facts to suit his argument.

  • Anonymous

     

    All this is a political gimmick..aimed at the vote banks and every one knows that....the reservations I mean...just imagine one guy slogs and gets good marks and on the other hand there is some one who takes it easy (mildly put) and walks away with a seat just because they belong to OBC...who is creating the divide, the government..why???
    No wonder most of our best guys shine better outside India...


  •  

    Hello!
    A lot of us better educated people, who fortunately or unfortunately happened to be born in the higher castes, have faced the brunt of reservations at some point. I personally was denied a medical college seat because I fell 0.3 % under the cut off for qualification in open quota. But people from reserved castes from my own class, who were more than 27 % below my marks got in because of their caste qualification.
    Today, one of them is a licensed medical practitioner in Chennai city, after struggling to pass the exams for 10 years, with several arrears repeatedly. I know only one of these people. Think of the other thousands of ill-qualified doctors and engineers our country is producing, wasting the precious resources of teachers and colleges, putting the lives of our people at imminent danger for decades to come.

    I did not try to write the entrance exams again. I instead got an American University scholarship, and am a scientist for a pharma company in the US.
    However, I still resent the fact that someone who was so much less qualified than me is a doctor in my country and I was denied the chance.
    This deep rooted resentment makes me and all others who have been similarly affected, want to run away to a place where their merit is recognized. When the same politicians, who look at this reservation as a ticket to their continued hold on power, cry in pseudo patriotic tunes to the NRIs to prevent brain drain and come back to our motherland for the betterment of the country, it is not credible.
    Reservation for a caste, reserves against the meritorious. Reservation should be based on economic backwardness and not promote social schisms.
    The removal of caste-based and caste-important implementations in a society is the ultimate way to improve the people as one civilization. Only then will there be a feeling of oneness, as a single India that we wish to work for.

  • RangA

     

    However, I still resent the fact that someone who was so much less qualified than me is a doctor in my country and I was denied the chance.

    Dear Ramya Mani,
    Even though you are denied admission you had the means to get through and establish yourself. You think it is because of your merit. But unfortunately, if you reflect you can see that it is because of your position in the society and your ancestry that made it for you. Think of the unfortunate millions who do not have those advantages over generations. I am only requesting you to think about them seriously. Your resentment would go away.
    indhiyar anaivarum en udan piRanthavargaL nnu neenga uNmaiyaa neneichaa you would sacrifice for your brother voluntarily. These politicians make you feel you are being cheated and insulted. I understand.

  • Anonymous

     

    RangA

    How come you assumed Ramya had a rich background? There are millions of poor kids from the so called FC who are sons and daughters of poor cooks and poor helpers for generations. Your reservation system is doing a great injustice to those poor among the FC who have no means even for one full meal a day. But you want to provide reservations to the sons and daughters of millionaires and land lords who are categorized as OBCs. There is a gross injustice in the whole system. There are poor both socially and educationally among the forward community also. Your reservation system fails those poor and downtrodden among those FCs. They are no way superior than any of the SC or OBCs. Reservation should only be provided to those who really deserve irrespective of their birth.

    Rajan


  •  

    I don't think Ranga meant 'rich', when he said 'ancestry'. I think he meant 'genes'. Centuries of education has defenitely altered the genes of certain families. Similarly, centuries of illiteracy has blunted the genes of many families. Reservation is a route to encourage those with the 'blunted genes' to sharpen them.

    If only the OBCs had internet access 2 centuries ago, you would have read millions of stories about people wanting to learn, but denied education because of their caste.

    Agreed there are cases of a rich OBC making it while a poor OC losing. But these are exceptions; not the rule. I also agree that reservation should be only for backward AND poor people. But our politicians are not making that amendment because of the personal lobbying from rich, backward class people.

  • Anonymous

     

    All the seats in all the IITs plus IIMS, even if completely reserved and strictly allocated based on population% quotas, are like grains of sand that will make no dent in the lives of the hundreds of millions who are struggling. It makes obvious sense to strengthen basic education, since that is where there is maximum variance. I certainly believe that the variance in the quality of education offered at national versus state-level engineering colleges is far less than that among primary schools in the country. Rural schools sometimes have no roof, no teacher, no books, no supplies. It most certainly costs less to give high quality education to a primary school student than the publiuc money poured to get the same student through engineering, IIT/REC/Guindy/whatever. Even purely intuitively, it makes sense to educate the sapling than the adult tree. There is something fundamentally wrong with spending limited public money on college education. India will certainly become a superpower a lot sooner by paying attention to schooling between grades 1-10 and maybe 11-12. By eliminating the appalling variance in quality of education and everything else at those lower levels. And this can be done in 10-20 years. Not bad, considering what has been accomplished in 60 years by focusing so much public money on higher education.


  •  

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.


  •  

    See the +2 results, who cares for education?? who tops the list??? its evident. Reservation shuold be totally banned. A handicap has got 1137 marks this time. why can't or what stop a obc candidate to get so ??


  •  

    ananda vikatan, 2 r 3 weeks before edition, came with an article "Thaai Manne Vanakkam" which had that week's author as an education analyst. She pointed out the pitfalls of Education System in India. after reading that, i felt our edu-sstem has more serious problems to rescue from, politicians are not considiering this burning issues, and unnessesarily hiliting the reservation issue.. Even granted, this won't improve the poor's life


  •  

    This reservation issue by ALL the political parties is nothing but shedding crocodile tears. Why not the Governments both at Centre and the States start Universities exclusively for BCs and MBCs while keeping the existing quotas in private colleges intact. They are free to produce millions of Engineers and Doctors if they really want to uplift them. They have the requisite funds and infrastructure too is not going to be of any problem. No section of the society would have any objections to it. Further, the Governments have created job quotas in Government semi/quasi government Organisations to absorb them. But no government including that of 'Kalaignar' would ever make a sincere attempt simply because they would not be able to play politics on this issue. Any comments?


  •  

    (extracted from a forward)

    I think we should have job reservations in all the fields. I completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this. Let's start the reservation with our cricket team. We should have 10 percent reservation for Muslims. 30 percent for OBC, SC /ST like that. Cricket rules should be modified accordingly. The boundary circle should be reduced for an SC/ST player. The four hit by an OBC player should be considered as a six and a six hit by a OBC player should be counted as 8 runs. An OBC player scoring 60 runs should be declared as a century. We should influence ICC and make rules so that the pace bowlers like Shoaib akhtar should not bowl fast balls to our OBC player. Bowlers should bowl maximum speed of 80 kilometer per hour to an OBC player. Any delivery above this speed should be made illegal. Also we should have reservation in Olympics. In the 100 meters race, an OBC player should be given a gold medal if he runs 80 meters.

    There can be reservation in Government jobs also. Let's recruit SC/ST and OBC pilots for aircrafts which are carrying the ministers and politicians (that can really help the country...) Ensure that only SC/ST and OBC doctors do the operations for the ministers and other politicians. (Another way of saving the country...) Let's be creative and think of ways and means to guide INDIA forward... Let's show the world that INDIA is a GREAT country. Let's be proud of being an INDIAN. .May the good breed of politicians like ARJUN SINGH long live...

  • Anonymous

     

    I' m for a limited Reservation for all socities with the criteria of the income and not the so called 'socially and economically backward'. We are an independent country for more than 50 years and more and still these politicians have this word 'socially and economically backward' using in all forums. What does this mean? Does this mean that the preachings of Periyar is not correctly fullfilled. In tamilnadu, this reseravtion has been in force for many years and many of the so called ''socially and economically backward' have now become 'forward'. We still speak about the 'ancestry', genes' etc., being carried away by the slogannering of these cheap politicians. I'm sure, anybody irrespective of the social background, can perform provided he puts the efforts. Lets start respecting the effort and not the so called 'gene', 'ancestry', 'socailly backward', etc.,

    Suresh

  • Anonymous

     

    I' m for a limited Reservation for all socities with the criteria of the income and not the so called 'socially and economically backward'. We are an independent country for more than 50 years and more and still these politicians have this word 'socially and economically backward' using in all forums. What does this mean? Does this mean that the preachings of Periyar is not correctly fullfilled. In tamilnadu, this reseravtion has been in force for many years and many of the so called ''socially and economically backward' have now become 'forward'. We still speak about the 'ancestry', genes' etc., being carried away by the slogannering of these cheap politicians. I'm sure, anybody irrespective of the social background, can perform provided he puts the efforts. Lets start respecting the effort and not the so called 'gene', 'ancestry', 'socailly backward', etc.,

    Suresh

  • Siva

     

    The real issue has some one already pointed out is going to the primary level of education. There are thousands and thousands of schools in India run by Governments of various states which do not provide quality teachers, basic amenities like class rooms, sanitation facilities etc., etc., the list goes on. In 59 years of indpendence what we have achieved is selling the education and health care to private people. Today decent education and health care cost money which many cannot afford. As a striking doctor pointed out India spends just 3% of our GDP on education and the real issue is there. Quality education and health care is already out of reach for millions and millions of people in India. Only well employed people can afford to put their kids in quality schools and the viscious circle starts there. Those cannot afford, face highly under qualified teachers with no amenities and facilities. We should give equal justice and opportunity to all. Instead of running schools and hospitals, government is running Hotels and Airports - even they are interested in making money and do not belive in providing service.

  • Anonymous

     

    An Engineering or a medical seat has a simple advantage. The person who gets in,gets out with a degree in the normal period or even in an extended period.

    Make these courses like Chartered Accountancy. Let AICTE play the role of ICAI. The Engg.colleges should conduct the classes and give a simple course completion certificate. The central body would then conduct a common exam in the lines of Insitute of Chartered Accountants of India. A person attending classes and then passing would become an Associate immediately. A person who passes the exam directly has to work for 2 years after passing to become an associate. ( Ithink the AMIE works on this fashion.But the content has made it unpopular). The ICAI which advises many countries for setting up an accounting body and the guidelines can provide the consulting.

    This system would take a period of 5 years to settle down.But it will remove many anomalies.With a common exam the employer gets a basic assurance on the quality.


    OISG


  •  

    OISG,

    AMIE calls for a gap, its named as experience and that don't count real experience whereas CA has to have real experience.

    bringing this system into Engineering would further confuse the students who are now itself confused by several othr anamolies.

    for the past 5 yrs, students either in shcool\college suffer with lot of problems, major one is the keep-on-changing of rules\syllabus systems ect.

    In india students are not allowed to study peacefully. Politicians\College&shcool authorities, courts all interrupt and irritate them a lot.

    but its the role of education analysts and experts which is the need of the hour, also the poor' students' concerns

  • Anonymous

     

    In today's news PC has proposed further cess and taxes. Reason...the number of seats need to increased because of this reservation..who pays the tax and who enjoys...what a disparity... a pity...I am not sure where India is heading...on one hand people are trying to abolish the caste system (right from the time Britishers left us)...on the other hand...because of the reservations..people will be encouraged to hold on to this caste system...is there some one who can save us...I dont think God can help here...probably he belongs to FC...


  •  

    I love Silicon Sillu's analogy of reservations in Indian cricket. When we can clearly see the effect a player of lesser merit can bring to a game, we dont include him. We choose over him for a better player. In cases when a player(for eg in the past Vinod Kambli)gets undue chances only because he was favoured by the captain's reservation, we cry wolf, ask why Lakshman was not given a chance. Similarly, in the world of international trade and nation-(b)eat-nation games, the better team will win.
    Gleaning from these discussions, we also learn that the Indian Government's disregard for bettering primary education, for nourishing the sapling is the root cause for the economically backward and rural students' inability to perform.
    So, in summary, instead of wasting time and resources to fertilize a stunted, but adult tree, its time to channel those nutrients towards the saplings. Give them the same educational advantage that the rich and privileged have. And then if they are still backward, dig deeper for ways to better their education. Don't take away the chances from the academically wealthy, to give to the academically poor, but socially rich.

    And to answer RangA: I do not come from an economically priveleged family. I took up loans and repaid them over several years.

  • Anonymous

     

    Adding to Silicon Sillu's "In the 100 meters race, an OBC player should be given a gold medal if he runs 80 meters"...I definitely foresee that day when they would say...1st place reserved for...2nd place reserved for....and 3rd place for general...

  • RangA

     

    This is the problem in an interactive wep page. Every word had to be defined. I wrote:

    Even though you are denied admission you had the means to get through and establish yourself.

    When I said "means" I did not mean rich, nor genes. It could be anything. Ability to take up a loan is also included. Some distant relative could have helped. Father's friend's colleague's oNNukku vitta chaiththappa may have some vital information. These are all possible for the forward class. At least for 98% of the forward class. Unfortunately there are those poor rural underprivileged souls who do not have any of these means. I meant them
    I do not want to highjack this thread on a debate on reservation. I only meant to point out the fallacies in Thapar's so called "statistical facts". Nobody seems to be talking about them. So I quit.

  • Anonymous

     

    To Thamizh Thambi

    Your arguments have no basis. Where is the proof that desxcendents of poor bhramins's genes have been altered over the period of years? Do you have any proof? Were there any studies and data on your absurd statement ? Pro Reservationist claim nothing comes out by birth? If so how come a son, grandson, great grand son of cooks can be more intelligent than a son, grand son, great grand son of a Thevar or Udayar Jamindhar family? Please write some sense when you do in public. In what way Ramya Mani is forward than the daughter or son of a rich Govt SC officer or rich OBC landlord or a BC judge. It is very funny and bullshit to say reservation can alter the genes of a generation.

    My argument is even among bramins there are poorest of poor chlldren who are kept poor and downtrodden for centuries, they are victimised by this reservation policy. If you study history or Sangam lterarture or Silapathigaram one will learn that bramins were always poor.

    If a reservation policy says a poor bramin kid for generations should be punished just because of his birth iresspective of his socio, economic background then I will say let such law go to hell and such a country perish.

  • Arvindh

     

    " I will say let such law go to hell and such a country perish."

    "Thanioruvanukku unavu ellaienil" gnabagam vandidichi...

    unnudaiya routhiram nyayamanadhu than

    ana satham pottu payanellai.muttalgal, mudargal eppadi ethavathu seithu kondethan eruppargal...

    quota la collector avum, judge avum ennum nalla padhavi, nalla padhavi la erukkaravanoda paiyan enakkum quota la seat kudu nnu kekkarathu avanoda mudhugu elumbu ellamaiye kattugirathu...ethai adaripavargal patri enna solla...mana sumai than adigamagirathu..ethai patri tamil valaipathivil puratchi urimai pesugiravargal vai thirakkamal eruppadhu eno..


  •  

    Hello Anonymous

    I am not a biologist. Nor can I prove the gene gets altered. Try to understand the concept of what I said, instead of taking it literally and getting into genetic engineering. Centuries of education WILL lead to smarter and more intelligent offsprings. One does not need proof for that. Look at examples around you and you will know.

    And please don't confuse money with education. Reservation is to provide an easier path to education for those from uneducated families because they cannot compete with students from families which have been studying for generations.

    And do answer your observation about brahmins being poor - they are supposed to live poor. A brahmin is not even supposed to get money for his services; he can get only grains. That is how they lived during silappadhigaaram. Later, they started earning money and living comfortably, but denied education to lower castes. Now, the roles are reversed and brahmins are denied education because of their caste. What goes around comes around....

  • Anonymous

     

    ThamizThambi,
    If What goes around comes around is true, in future, all these low caste people who came up in life will be deprived out of education too, even when they have merit? If that happens, I will really believe this 'Around' Statement!

    " Brahmins started earning money and living comfortably, but denied education to lower castes" - Do you mean that Brahmin made sure that all the lower caste people won't get quality education? Do you have any proof or valid stats for the above said statement?

    Summaa Vaai irukkunnu, adichchu uda koodaathu!

  • Anonymous

     

    One more strong reason for pouring ALL public money into compulsory primary education (defined as 1-8, or 1-10, at most 1-12) is that this would definitely be proportional to population. Therefore, every community will get its fair share. Higher education distorts fair allocation of public resources and that is a legitimate reason for resentment. If higher education has to be financed through borrowing, and 1-12 is uniformly of a high quality, lots of kids will feel confident enough of succeeding in life and lose interest in the rat race to become an engineer/doctor/CA whatever. After all Bill Gates does not have a college degree, but does have a high quality high school diploma from a very good school in the Seattle area. Ditto for Steve Jobs and so many other successful entrepreneurs here in the USA.

  • Anonymous

     

    Final comment: If primary (1-8, then 8-10, finally 10-12) education is strenghtened and the variance in quality and resources greatly reduced, if not eliminated, then the iron laws of the normal distribution (in which I believe more fervently than any God!) will take over. The cream, the top 5-10% of every subgroup will rise to the top, roughly in proportion to their numbers in the population. Intelligence and ability are not exclusive domains of any one or two or three communities. And given that just about every community in a huge country like India are in the millions, there will be VERY smart people from every nook, corner and background to easily fill engg and medical seats which, after all probably total no more than 200,000? And all of these can be made to happen in as little as 20 years, with the situation getting increasingly better in the meantime. However, NOTHING is going to happen, unfortunately. Caste based strategies are very useful in the political arena to gain electoral an advantage for particular parties.


  •  

    Reservation system wouldn't work. Arjun Singh couldn't answer properly any of the questions posed by Thapar.
    Also, like most point out, brahmins have been poor throughout centuries... and many of the cooks, caterers are not able to pay the fees. So, the argument that reservation will uplift a certain section of society doesn't hold.

    Most of the reserved seats in many colleges for SC/ST are vacant and these seats are denied for the deserved candidates just because they are born brahmins.

    Our politicians will never change and nor will the system. I give my full support to anti-quota protesters. No forward thinking person will accept the quota.

    Arjun Singh should step down and apologise publicly for his folly.

  • Nanda

     

    "Brahmins started earning money and living comfortably, but denied education to lower castes". They started earning money, because other stopped respecting them and supporting them. During early days, they were respected, people recognized the social structure. When it stopped, they also had to look out for food by themselves. Obviously, others could not compete with their intelligence.
    If 'brahmins are supposed to live poor', then vaisyas are supposed to live rich and sudras are supposed to live serving them. I am sure tamilzh tambi will not agree to this nor anyone in this current period. So don't talk about what brahmins should do.
    If your gene doesn't support education, then why don't you do something that suits your gene. Look at your core competency, don't envy others and snatch their food. Demand for a your respect, but don't demand for disrespecting others.

  • Anonymous

     

    http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm?q=tp&file=.htm


    Interesting read. some numbers are shocking.


  •  

    "If 'brahmins are supposed to live poor', then vaisyas are supposed to live rich and sudras are supposed to live serving them. I am sure tamilzh tambi will not agree to this nor anyone in this current period. So don't talk about what brahmins should do."

    Nanda, I sure don't agree with the philosophy of the caste system, in today's world. One's profession should not be dictated by his/her birth. My point was, brahmins ventured into other professions (whether pro-active or reactive). Since they had a penchant for education, they could learn anything and excel. But for people who were not used to education, it is not easy. You have to give them an easier route.

    Look at people in their sixties. All venerated jobs in their generation (i.e officer in a bank or other PSUs) were occupied by brahmins. Look at it now. Lot of today's respected jobs (i.e engineer in a tech company) are occupied by people of "lower" castes. Isn't this good? Aren't you happy for them? Isn't this equality? Don't you think this was brought about by reservation?

    And again, the topic is education here; not money.


  •  

    for a change, get degresses and relax for some time....

    ultimate entertainment

    http://www.google.com/trends?q=vijayakanth%2C+ramadoss&ctab=0&geo=IN&date=all

    http://www.google.com/trends?q=amma%2C+ayya&ctab=0&geo=IN&date=all

    http://www.google.com/trends?q=color tv%2C+free rice&ctab=0&geo=IN&date=all

  • Anonymous

     

    Tamil Tambi

    You are telling that bramins are excelling in education. Right? You also tell that they got a special gene because their ancestors studied well, so they got that special gene. When I asked for proof you could not give. Similarly I can ask proof for all those abusrd statements you are kept on making here. You say you dont believe in caste system at the same time you are also telling bramins should stay as poor and lead a poverty life. If bramins must lead a poor life why not other caste should follow the same old traditions and do only the allotted jobs? So your argument is flawed.

    Now you answer only one question. I know several brami families. I also know who their ancestors are. The current generation and atleast last four generations their ancestors were either cooks or helpers or errand boys in rich people's homes. Now do you still tell their fifth generation boy will suddenly acquire intelligence? According to you his gene should not possess any special IQ. Now is he poor and struggling for single meal no avenues to continue his studies.

    TELL ME WHY YOU WANT TO DENY HIM THE BENEFIT OF RESERVATION? TELL ME IN WHAT WAY HE IS BACKWARD WHEN COMPARED TO THE SON/DAUGHTER OF AN IAS/IPS DALIT OFFICER? CAN YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION?

    I know there are millions of such sociallu economically backward bramins boys and girls. You want them to be crushed at the same time you suggest reservatiion for ths kids of SC/ST and BC IAS IPS officers, children of BC land lords, children of BC judges and other high ranking SC dignitaries. Tell me one convincing reply to support your stupid reservation policy.

    Again I am talking about education only not the money, I am talking about education deprived and also poor bramin kids for generations. I can show you millions of such poor kids those bramin kids those did not have the money or opportunity to go to schools atleast for the last 3 to 4 generations. What is your solution for them? Come on tell me? I am talking about education only not economic factor.

    For these poor people nothing went around to come around, they are the losers and their only sin was born in such cursed caste.

    Rajan

  • Anonymous

     

    DISSERVICE:-
    OBC person who gets quota seat....it really puts down his personality, which he may not appreciate initially ,So in the name of helping OBC's actually they are doing a disservice .

    My point is, forget about IIT or higher medical insititutions, wherein you just don't do anything but studies, its only subject, materials, etc., a person if he works hard and studies, may be he comes out as a successful product in that facalty,being higher studies, a person need to be a expert in that field. In case IIM, I think its not the subject alone, it’s the stratgies , tactis, and one- up man ship all the time, so the kind of group you get in to, the kind of movie you see, the kind of book ( story) you study ..all these matters, imagine a OBC ...he might be bullied by others, imagine a student bullied constantly , also a failure in subjects, ...end result may be disaster. May be we have a OBC, who watches right movies, ends up reading right (wrong) novels, has girl friends, if he doesn't have the merit baground, he might also be a failure, so either way you look it at, it’s a disaster plan for them. But to realize it takes time, by that time all these institutions must have destroyed beyond repairs, may be that’s the reason, they establish IIT and IIM in Dubai and singapure.

    Anyway....what to do, I think lots of mail, talk etc are taking place, something worthwhile will happen.

  • a sad person

     

    it is sad. But I think may be the last 100 years from early 20th century to now and furher will see the downfall of the brahmins in a time cycle of ups and downs and may be the next jewish suffering will come upon brahmins. who knows. But the brahmin community, if it is united and puts its efforts in industry and become rich then all these prejudices will vanish. like the success stories of sindhis without even a State to call their own. There seems to be a vendetta against brahmins just because some time earlier they were orthodox and did not allow others to mix with them. We see even in USA Americans keep off and mix only with a chosen few. When and where all these going to lead us to. Obviously the society will get split on this issue .
    let us hope for the best.


  •  

    Rajan

    "You also tell that they got a special gene because their ancestors studied well, so they got that special gene. When I asked for proof you could not give."

    I really don't have a scientific/statical proof for my claim. I am not submitting a research paper here. I say again, look at the people around you. Can you deny that brahmins are intelligent by default? How did they get that intelligence? Do you believe God/Nature created them differently? I don't think so. It is definitely because of centuries of exposure to education.

    "You say you dont believe in caste system at the same time you are also telling bramins should stay as poor and lead a poverty life."

    I think you misunderstood me here. I am not telling today's brahmins to live poor (true that was the concept of the caste system, but it is not practical today). When someone said brahmins were poor even during silappadhigaaram, I said, "that was how they were supposed to be".

    "I know several brami families. I also know who their ancestors are. The current generation and atleast last four generations their ancestors were either cooks or helpers or errand boys in rich people's homes. Now do you still tell their fifth generation boy will suddenly acquire intelligence? According to you his gene should not possess any special IQ. Now is he poor and struggling for single meal no avenues to continue his studies. I know there are millions of such sociallu economically backward bramins boys and girls. "

    Can I ask you for proof of millions of such people? There are people like you described; but they are far less in number. They are definitely not in millions. You accuse me for making absurd statements and not giving proof. What do you think of your claim here?

  • Anonymous

     

    TT

    Rajan

    <
    I really don't have a scientific/statical proof for my claim. I am not submitting a research paper here. I say again, look at the people around you. Can you deny that brahmins are intelligent by default? How did they get that intelligence? Do you believe God/Nature created them differently? I don't think so. It is definitely because of centuries of exposure to education.
    >

    When you dont have any idea about DNA or gene why do you bad mouth here? I see only brilliant BC and SC people around me. I see Nadars are the most intelligent among me. I dont see any brilliant bramin around me. Can I generalize that only Nadars have the highest IQ in the world? Any caste will have its share/percentage of intelligent and non intelligent and medicore people. Same is the case with bramins too. You must be suffering from too much of inferiority complex to make such statements. All bramins are not elite. There are dull candidates in bramins too as it will be there in any other caste. As you made absurd statement on gene, you are also wrongly assuming that all bramins had education for centuries. Only a select sect of bramins had that privileage. You neither know science nor know history.



    <
    I think you misunderstood me here. I am not telling today's brahmins to live poor (true that was the concept of the caste system, but it is not practical today). When someone said brahmins were poor even during silappadhigaaram, I said, "that was how they were supposed to be".
    >

    No I did not misunderstood you. You clearly told that bramins should be punished and they must live in poverty. Your what comes around what goes around statement clearly exposed your perverted mind set. Dont bluff people here. Here everyboy understand English.

    <
    Can I ask you for proof of millions of such people? There are people like you described; but they are far less in number. They are definitely not in millions. You accuse me for making absurd statements and not giving proof. What do you think of your claim here?
    >

    Come on. You wont give me proof but you will ask me proof. Yes I made my statement after clearly understanding and personally witnessing the plights of millions of bramins all across India. Read the recet article that came in rediff that has lot of statistics on this. Bramins are below poverty line and did not have access to education for centuries in so many parts of India, and I am one among them. I am the first educated person in my family in the last 5 generations. Do you want more proof? I am not bluffing like your stupid and ridiculous GENE theory. I am talking from my experience. Let the Govt conduct a unpartial survey they will find my statement true. Without conducting any statistics the Govt is implementing this reservations, that is outrageous, unacceptable and anti people.

    You still did not answr my question


    TELL ME WHY YOU WANT TO DENY HIM THE BENEFIT OF RESERVATION? TELL ME IN WHAT WAY HE IS BACKWARD WHEN COMPARED TO THE SON/DAUGHTER OF AN IAS/IPS DALIT OFFICER? CAN YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION?


    What is your answer? If tomorrow if the Govt finds that there are millions or forget even if there is a single bramin who was deprived of education and living under poverty line, what is your case on him? Should he be punished for no fault on his side? If that is what you suggest and if that is the social justice you preach, I would say "GO TO HELL WITH YOUR SOCIAL JUSTICE"

    Rajan

  • Anonymous

     

    All,

    I would accept TT's argument that brahmins are intelligents when compared to other castes. Its not because of any gene, only because of reservation.

    Being a brahmin myself, my parents have been telling me since my childhood -"Unless you get 98% you wont get a seat in the engg college". When you are grown in such an environment, you are bound to learn things and also bound to be intelligent.

    Please see the statistic on how many of the 31% open competition is won by the BC students when it comes to engg college admissions. Its close to 27 % - which implies that only 4% of the toal number of seats are won by the so called FCs of which brahmins are 1 or 2%.

    If there is some truth in people like TT's arguments, why can't we decide the percentage of reservation through supreme court judges (rather than these Arjuns Singhs)?

    India is in such a sad state of affairs that you just need reservation in private sector to take it to the path of disaster. Jaihind !!

    Sankar

  • Bay Area Dravidan

     

    Man..

    U brahmins..no matter whatever happens..u support BJP and ADMK..coz their leaders are brahmins..

    Get a hold of reality dudes..can Jayalalitha tell a word against dravidian movement? Can she utter a word against reservation? Fact is TN (even India is following suit now) will always be ruled by anti/Non brahmins...U cannot change that.."Murpagal Seiyin Pirpagal Vizhayum" ..u r reaping the benefits of what your forefathers did to poor dravidians..

  • a sad observer of the comments

     

    1900s to 1940s

    Many brahmins were cooks, prohits, hotel servers,death ritualists, small town kanakkupillais . Not even 1 % of them were landlords. Some studied and took clerical jobs. Girls were stopped in studies beyond 5th due to orthodoxy and so their advancement was not there at all.. Of course a few got very good education and performance then very rarely.

    1947 onwards upto 1967
    Studies opened up to some graduation and became AG’s office auditors, clerks in govt. and private companies and many migrated.

    1967 to now

    After reservation many more migrated out of TN. Very few stayed in villages or small towns as they could not earn anything .

    Now brahmins are neither an economic force, nor a political force nor a strong united group.. As archakas toiling from 3 or 4 a.m without rest, or a decent income and toiling until late night is not a job. Gods will take care of themselves. Majority is always right. A regret -The moguls and invaders what they did in punjab and Kashmir could have done all over and solved this issue then.

  • Anonymous

     

    Really sad to read that we don't have even the mutual respect for our country men. I hope all those who use caste & religion have done their PLEDGE during their school days. If not, go back to your basics dude. You shouldn't be outside & posting freely such rubbish. The law gives all of us Fundamental Right to Speak & Write. But it doesn't give you the right to treat someone inferior or superior.

    We all reap what we sow. In what way it is ethical to supress 1 community just to upbring another one.

  • Bay area refugee

     

    this is for Bay area dravidan and those who think like him

    Dravidam as such is vanishing in Tamil nadu. it was a name brought in and the purpose was achieved to capture power. The only aim of dravidam was to annihilate brahmins. Bhakti has increased enarmously and those who come to temples have gone up by 100 times.temples are giving a new look and temple management has given lots of jobs and money ( not to archachas). Also with central govt. also in the grip and the family businesses like tv having an all india market dravidam has become desiyam. MGR first and Jj next tried to stem this of course with JJs faults she could not have succeeded against a combination. the new star Dr Ramadoss has arisen t follow MK. Where is drasvidam now except to finish off brahmins and corner the wealth of the country in a few family hands. All the caste fights and caste wars in TN arise between other economically powerful so called BCs and OBCs on one side and the scheduled castes on the other side. One cannot forget that the obc concept itself came about due to jealousy on scheduled castes coming up with prvisions in the constitution. the vidulai chiruthais etc have come up after knowing this. So a new word other than dravidam is needed now. the main purpose of anti brahminism has served its purpose. In the past 70 years that is from 1940 to now there has been no case of brahmin ill treating or harassing any others. he was all the time running away from the dravidans. it is a case of majority victimising a minority group. Even in olden days the caste harassement came from upper castes outside brahmins.

    From Bay area refugee


  •  

    On a lighter note:
    Silicon Sillu, do you know that your comment about reservation in cricket and someone else's addendum of giving the gold medal to an OBC who runs 80 ms in a 100 meter race is now making its rounds as a quote from Azim Premji? I got it from 2 different sources and one of them said they got it form their IIM Ahmedabad alumni group! Have a great weekend. :)

  • Free thinker

     

    If we all look at from another angle, there has been no harassment of any other castes by brahmins right for all the time known to me thtr is for about 82 years. I know personally. May be many of them kept away from other castes during the 30s due to their personal beliefs which they did not impose on others. the argument that your ancestors did it and so you suffer now reminds me of the famous moral story of wolf and the lamb. wolf drinking water on the upstream and lamh at the bottom and the wolf accusing the lamb if not you your ancestors did it and so I attack snd kill you now. Also i went through the statistics. In most of the villages and small towns there is now no brahmin living in tamil nadu. All have gone away. many do not know the names of their ancestors were. May be the discrimination and redicule and the rservation nail going on and sometimes public humiliation has gone for a long time now in tamil nadu. If they have succeeded elsewhere it is grace of God or whatever.
    free thinker

  • swami

     

    This is the pay back period for us... we've the responsibility to compensate the people and their generation(s) for what our ancestors did to them- for having made them deprived of their rights- socially and economically, and for having treated them worse than shit... Still I can not come to terms with the way they were treated in the society then! Needless to tell that it was so cruel and injustice. it's a real shame ! Had the trend continued for some more time, the inevitable would be that those poor people will have revolted against the system/society and take what they wanted themselves....in that case, they could have fixed the reservation quotas themselves, there could not be such discussions on the topic going on like this... in that sense you and me are fortunate, it did not happen, otherwise, we , may be our future generation will have witnessed the voilence and some ugly sceenes when it's unleashed...Wondering how come some people (atleast as far as seen in the site) did not realise the importance of the reservation system and went to the extent of talking bluntly against it because of the reason they could not get a seat for medical or engineering!! Request you to think in their perspective, how bad would you feel now if your ancestores were treated the way theirs were? then tell me, don't you have the responsibility/morality to repent/compensate it ?

    If India is given a chance to conduct olympics, looks you guys would suggest conducting all the races for physically-able and handicapped ones(physically challanged) together? The reservation system is like the para-olympics for those who have been made such that they can not compete with people like us for sure.

  • Anonymous

     

    Saying Forward takes you forward and Saying Backward takes you backward. Remember Swami Vivekananda's Words

    "Arise, Awake, stop not till the goal is reached".

    Tamil Nadu has reservations for a long time. So reachout to Central Government for escape reservation. Now Central Government has imlemented reservations, flyout to other parts of world.
    I am from Coimbatore - Gift of Tamil Nadu.

    When you shut one door remember another door opens. It's not the end of the world.

  • Anonymous

     

    I think the above quote is true for trap doors too!

    Just when you thought VP singh door is closed Arjun singh door opens.

    OISG

  • Anonymous

     

    OBCs are not that backward really.They have better spending capacity comparable with general category and more spending power in some others. See the proof below: Ref Economic Times dated 2.6.06
    The Economic Times Online
    Printed from economictimes.indiatimes.com > Economy> Indicators
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In consumption, OBCs are no longer backwards
    SHAILESH DOBHAL

    TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ FRIDAY, JUNE 02, 2006 12:00:00 AM]

    NEW DELHI: If consumption defines our economic status, it seems there is not much difference between the country’s ‘General (non-SC/ST)’ category population and Other Backward Castes (OBC). It may sound unbelievable, but the annual per capita consumption expenditure (APCCE) for OBCs is Rs 15,436, which compares reasonably well with Rs 16,923 for the general category.


    If you needed proof that social policy in this country operates quite in isolation of hard economic data, you need to look no further than the NSS data. OBCs — 35.8 % of India’s population and not 52% as the government would make us believe — compare favourably with the General category (36.5% population) on overall consumption figures as well as for individual products and services.



    In fact in many items of personal consumption — appliances, jewellery, medical services, alcohol, electricity and fuel, personal household goods — the OBC category pips the General category by a good margin. Overall, APCCE for the top and bottom 20% of population for OBC and General is surprisingly similar.


    The annual per capita consumption expenditure (APCCE) for OBCs is Rs 15,436, which compares reasonably well with Rs 16,923 for the general category.



    Even as the imbroglio over reservation for OBCs in higher education institutes continues, with daggers drawn between proponents of the pro- and anti-quota stance, ET in partnership with National Council of Applied Economic Research’s senior fellow Rajesh Shukla did some quick analysis of the government’s own National Sample Survey (NSS 55th round 1999-2000) data on per capita consumption to come out with some startling figures.

    If you needed proof that social policy in this country operates quite in isolation of hard economic data, you need to look no further than the NSS data. OBCs — 35.8 % of India’s population and not 52% as the government would make us believe — compare favourably with the General category (36.5% population) on overall consumption figures as well as for individual products and services.

    And if you consider the top 20% population in the General and OBC categories, the gap not only narrows down considerably, but in very many products and services consumption is in fact higher than that in the General category, referred to as ‘Others’ in the NSS data.


    At the top end, an average OBC spends Rs 15,436 compared to Rs 16,923 for General, and bottom 20% is the same for everyone, with OBC spends of Rs 3,293 hardly any different from the General’s spend of Rs 3,336.

    Drill deeper and, in fact, APCCE of the top 20% of OBCs is higher than the General population in a host of consumption areas such as small appliances, jewellery, medical services, alcohol, electricity and fuel, personal household goods and pharmaceuticals.

    Whereas APCCE for OBCs here (top 20%) on personal household durables is Rs 652, the General category population only spends Rs 648. OBCs have more money for medical services (Rs 439 versus Rs 382 for General), jewellery (Rs 272 versus Rs 148 for General), even alcohol (Rs 109 versus Rs 103 for General) and pharmaceuticals (Rs 835 versus General’s Rs 734).

    Even in products and services where the General category scores over OBCs, the gap is not too wide for both the top and bottom 20% of the population in respective categories. For food products, OBC APCCE is Rs 6,614 compared to General’s Rs 6,920 in the top end. For the bottom 20%, General category population spends Rs 2,162 compared to OBCs’ Rs 2,101.

    For big appliances, the top 20% of OBCs run almost neck-and-neck with the General category, with APCCE of Rs 36 and Rs 44 respectively. Again at the bottom end, there is hardly any difference in spends on books and education, with OBC APCCE at Rs 40 compared to General’s Rs 42.

    What also emerges from this NSS data is the fact that on consumption spends there is hardly any difference in the bottom 20% of all categories, SC/ST (43.3% of its population in this segment), OBC (37.7%) and others (18.9 %) with APCCE of Rs 3,172, Rs 3,293 and Rs 3,336 respectively.

    This may give some teeth to the lobby asking for the creamy OBC layer to be kept out of reservations and the bottom-trawlers of the General category also being offered some kind of reservations sops.

  • Anonymous

     

    Enjoyed a lot! »

  • Anonymous

     

    Cool blog, interesting information... Keep it UP » »

  • Anonymous

     

    இந்தி சாதிகளுக்கு இடஒதுக்கீடு தரும் 'தமிழ்'நாடு அரசு

    தற்போதைய தமிழக அரசின் இடஒதுக்கீடு கொள்கை தமிழ் என்கிற அடிப்படையில் அல்லாமல் வெறும் ஜாதி என்கிற அடிப்படையில் உள்ளது.

    நீங்கள் பிற்பட்டோர் பட்டியலை பார்த்தால் தமிழ் தவிற்று பிறமொழிகள் பேசும் ஜாதிகள் உள்ளன.

    இதில் இந்தி பேசும் முஸ்லிம்கள், ஸவுராஷ்டிரியர்கள்; தெலுங்கு பேசும் ரெட்டியார்கள்,நாயுடுகள், கன்னடம் பேசும் கவுண்டர்கள் ஆகியோர்க்கெல்லாம் இடஒதுக்கீடு வழங்கப்படுகிறது.

    தமிழ் பிராமிணர்களை அயோக்கியர்கள் என கருதும் தி மு க இந்தி பேசும் வடக்கர்கள் வாக்குகளை பெற இந்தி மொழி தேர்தல் பிரசுரங்களை வெளியிட்டது.

    தமிழகத்தில் தமிழ் பிராமணர்கள் தமிழர்கள் அல்ல என பிரச்சாரம் செய்கின்றன ப ம க, தி மு க ஆகியோர்.

    கர்ணாநிதிக்கு தமிழ் பிராமணர்கள் வெறுப்பு இந்தி மொழிக்கு மேலானது போலுள்ளது.

    எனது வகுப்பில் இந்தி பேசும் மாணாக்கர் விலைக்கொடுத்து OBC சான்றிதழ் வாங்கி அண்ணா பல்கலைக்கழகம் சேர்ந்தார். இந்தி/உருது மட்டும் பேசும் முஸ்லிம் தமிழகத்தில் ஜாதிகள் இடஒதுக்கீடு பெறுகின்றனர்.

    சென்னை விமானகத்தில் தமிழ் ஊழியர்கள் அவ்வளவு இல்லை. எல்லாமே இந்தி பேசுபவர்கள் தான்.

    தமிழக CBSE பள்ளிகள் இந்தி திணிப்பு தான்.

    இந்தி, கன்னடம், தெலுங்கு பேசும் ஜாதிகள் வருக; தமிழ் பிரமாணர் ஒழிக என கொள்கை வைத்துள்ளது தற்போதைய இடஒதுக்கீடு சட்டம்.

    கர்நாடகத்தில் கன்னடத்திற்கு பிரதானம் அளிக்கப்படுகிறது. கன்னட பிராமணர் கன்னடர் ஆவார். தமிழகத்தில் தமிழ் பிராமணர் வெளியாள் எனவு இந்தி, உருது, கன்னடம், தெலுங்கு ஜாதிகள் தமிழர்கள் என்கிற பெயரில் இடஒதுக்கீடு வாங்குகின்றனர்.

    தமிழக தமிழர்களுக்கா வெறும் ஜாதி கணக்கில் உகுந்தவருக்கா?
    இதில் இந்தி பேசும் முஸ்லிம்கள், ஸவுராஷ்டிரியர்கள்; தெலுங்கு பேசும் ரெட்டியார்கள்,நாயுடுகள், கன்னடம் பேசும் கவுண்டர்கள் ஆகியோர்க்கெல்லாம் இடஒதுக்கீடு வழங்கப்படுகிறது.

    தமிழ் பிராமிணர்களை அயோக்கியர்கள் என கருதும் தி மு க இந்தி பேசும் வடக்கர்கள் வாக்குகளை பெற இந்தி மொழி தேர்தல் பிரசுரங்களை வெளியிட்டது.

    தமிழகத்தில் தமிழ் பிராமணர்கள் தமிழர்கள் அல்ல என பிரச்சாரம் செய்கின்றன ப ம க, தி மு க ஆகியோர்.

    கர்ணாநிதிக்கு தமிழ் பிராமணர்கள் வெறுப்பு இந்தி மொழிக்கு மேலானது போலுள்ளது.

    எனது வகுப்பில் இந்தி பேசும் மாணாக்கர் விலைக்கொடுத்து OBC சான்றிதழ் வாங்கி அண்ணா பல்கலைக்கழகம் சேர்ந்தார். இந்தி/உருது மட்டும் பேசும் முஸ்லிம் தமிழகத்தில் ஜாதிகள் இடஒதுக்கீடு பெறுகின்றனர்.

    சென்னை விமானகத்தில் தமிழ் ஊழியர்கள் அவ்வளவு இல்லை. எல்லாமே இந்தி பேசுபவர்கள் தான்.

    தமிழக CBSE பள்ளிகள் இந்தி திணிப்பு தான்.

    இந்தி, கன்னடம், தெலுங்கு பேசும் ஜாதிகள் வருக; தமிழ் பிரமாணர் ஒழிக என கொள்கை வைத்துள்ளது தற்போதைய இடஒதுக்கீடு சட்டம்.

    கர்நாடகத்தில் கன்னடத்திற்கு பிரதானம் அளிக்கப்படுகிறது. கன்னட பிராமணர் கன்னடர் ஆவார். தமிழகத்தில் தமிழ் பிராமணர் வெளியாள் எனவு இந்தி, உருது, கன்னடம், தெலுங்கு ஜாதிகள் தமிழர்கள் என்கிற பெயரில் இடஒதுக்கீடு வாங்குகின்றனர்.

    தமிழக தமிழர்களுக்கா வெறும் ஜாதி கணக்கில் உகுந்தவருக்கா?


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